Rattly Deja Vu - lots of questions inside

[deviant]

Right then...the bike's decided to start make nasty noises from the head again, about 6000 miles after it had a new inlet camshaft.

Learning from my (£600) mistake last time, I did a bit of investigation before going anywhere near a garage.

- Camchain tensioner is intact and working fine with plenty of travel (I took the springs out before taking it off the engine, so the plunger stayed where it was when I took it off - about mid way through the travel). I'm assuming this means the chain itself is still ok. Anyway it sounds to me more like a tapping noise than a rattling chain.

- Valve clearances all seem ok. there's a few that are on either top or bottom limits and one that's a bit small and wants adjusting upwards. However there is nothing that is too big that might explain the noise.

- One of the inlet cam followers looks a bit scuffed, as does the mating cam. While this is not a good thing (esp as it's the same bloody camshaft that was replaced a couple of years ago), the clearance on this valve is within limits, and it's nothing like as bad as the one which came out last time (massive chunk worn out of it). So it doesn't look bad enough to be causing the rattle.

I really don't have much time for this. In the next few months I have the owners club rideout, two trackdays and about 3500 miles worth of touring to do. So the temptation is to chuck it into a garage and tell them to a) find out what's really wrong with it, and b) put it right. However my wallet still flinches at the thought of that (because once it's in a garage you don't have much choice other than horrendously expensive new parts). So I'm exploring other options before I resign myself to this. These include...

A) Source some good but used camshafts and followers before taking it into a garage, so when they tell me it is that worn follower causing the noise I don't end up paying £250+ for parts.

B) As above but change them myself and hope that that was the source of the noise. I suspect this will take more time than I have.

C) Buy a complete head and swap them over. Would prob need to do the valve clearances on the new one.

D) Buy a complete engine and swap them over (slightly extreme)

E) Buy a 7R, shove the 400 in the back of the garage and pretend it's not there.


A summary of the questions:

1) Am I missing something, or am I just in denial about the worn follower being the source of the noise?

2) Anyone got a good used set of cams and a handful of followers they are looking to get rid of. Or even a complete head?

3) Will an H-model head drop straight onto an L-model engine? I seem to remember someone saying the cam profiles are different. Is there enough of a difference to need rejetting/dyno time?

4) Can you remove/replace the head without dropping the motor?

5) Is my bike cursed?

[tobomoto]

E E E E E E E E E E!!!!! all the way!!

[RedexRobB]

I think your in denial.

Id say start the engine with the rocker cover off and have a listen, but i think that may not be good for it and oil goes everywhere too!

carsounds_dan had the same problem, nasty tapping sound up top, that turned out to be a worn rocker i think. I also had the same problem on my first ZXR, the top end started knocking like a bitch, turned out the head gasket had gone and the hardening had melted on one of the cams. Yours may just be wear and tear i dont know, but for the same cam to go makes you wonder if something else is going on, or it could just be the cam followers wearing out? How many miles has the motor done?

[deviant]

there's 17500 miles on the clock. Last bout of rattling was about 11000 miles.

The cam getting scuffed is a product of the follower wearing. And the followers seem to be made of cheese. The one that's gone isn't the same one that went last time, so it's got 17.5k on it. Just unfortunate that it's taken the camshaft with it that was brand new 6000 miles or so ago.

Since it seems to be a pretty random process, I could rebuild the engine and it go through a different one a month later.

Does anyone sell uprated cam followers?

looks like I'm dropping the engine out...

[RedexRobB]

may as well do the head gasket while yout at it, after all they do go about 20k miles

Might be worth changing all the followers aswell as the cam, perhaps a dodgy batch or something? Unusual for them to go so early, only reason mine went was because the engine overheated due to the HG.

[cargo]

Once the case hardening on a rocker is worn it will behave just like cheese
Only real solution is to replace with new ones NOT secondhand/worn

I do hope you fitted your camchain tensioner properly............I know I hit on this one all the time but it is so easy to get it wrong.................you MUST reset it every time you remove it or the springs.

[deviant]

Once the case hardening on a rocker is worn it will behave just like cheese
Only real solution is to replace with new ones NOT secondhand/worn

I should have said they are made of cheese with a good rind on . It's the quality of the case hardening seems to be completely random.

I'm not spending another £200 odd on a brand new camshaft, so that will be a used one. However you have a valid point about putting new followers in given they are relatively cheap. May be worth replacing all 16 while I'm at it, although that will probably mean *every* valve clearance needs changing.

I do hope you fitted your camchain tensioner properly............I know I hit on this one all the time but it is so easy to get it wrong.................you MUST reset it every time you remove it or the springs.

Yes I did. I took a whole load of photos as well and am planning to write up a 'how to' - so when I get round to that you can tell me I did it wrong .

You only need to reset it if you take the tensioner body off the engine. Removing the springs has nothing to do with it - although I have no idea why you'd remove the springs and then put them back without taking the rest of the tensioner off, so it's unlikely to matter.

The reason I took the springs out first was to make sure the plunger didn't get forced out when I took it off, and hence I could see if it was running out of travel.

[RedexRobB]

you might get away with the shims by re-using them on other valves. So might only have to buy a few.

[cargo]

I'd have the tensioner out and try to squeeze against the spring with my hand/thumb to test the ratchet.
That is the very problem Smiler had with his although he broke it putting it back in incorrectly.

An engine sitting not turning over will not apply enough pressure to defeat the ratchet IMHO

The ratchet in Smilers on first impressions was fine.


Is the rattle only there at a very particular revs................? At tick over s was fine then at about 4K the rattle arrived much over 4K and it was lost again in the general noise of the engine /exhaust.

How much is a rocker ?

[deviant]

Is the rattle only there at a very particular revs................? At tick over s was fine then at about 4K the rattle arrived much over 4K and it was lost again in the general noise of the engine /exhaust.

How much is a rocker ?

nope, it's there at all revs, loaded and unloaded, rising and falling revs. Which leads me to suspect it's nothing to do with the camchain.

I don't know how much rockers/followers are, but I think it's only a few quid each. I might give cradley a ring and see if they keep them in stock, since I'm passing there on saturday.

[MillaMeter]

Sorry to butt in like this, but I'm having exactly the same noise. My bike started to make these noises too. All started about 2-3 weeks ago. It's coming from the top of the engine and I can hear the rattle at all revs and any speed at any load. At first I thought it was nothing, but it seemed to got a little worse over the past couple of days. My bike has done about 38500KM bout 23000miles isn't it? I know nothing about this bike and have no idea what rattles mean what. so does it sound like I have the same problem?

EDIT:
does it sound like this?


Many thanks

Richard

[cargo]

Hard to be sure but that sounds a bit like a classic clutch rattle to me

When you blip the throttle the noise stays the same or am I hearing the wrong noise ?

BTW I'm talking about the video

[MillaMeter]

I think the noise does stay the same but I'm 100% sure in that vid it wasn't my clutch.

Like I said, I can hear the noise at any rpm any load and any speed.

[carsounds_dan]

Right, for the first problems in this thread.
Check all your followers carefully, if there is any chips in them replace them strait away (run a fingernail or screwdriver flat across them, any snags? get rid of them), this can be done with the bike in the frame by removing all the engine bolts except the back bottom one (by the rear shock bottom mount) and using your drive chain and the adjusters on the swinging arm to swivel the engine around that bolt. It sounds like a bodge but it's perfectly fine and I've done it 3 times in the 8 months i've owned my ZXR. With the engine rocked forward take the cams out and follow the manuals instructions from there. If you need help PM me and i'll give you plenty of advice.
Whilst you have the rocker cover off check over your cam caps AND the oil supply piece that runs on the left of the head underneath the top camchain guide. IF you camcaps are cracked buy a new head as you simply wont be getting enough oil in there, if the oil supply is cracked or broken cargo had one a while back i'm sure he'd help you out, a new ones about £20 from cradleys I think.
If you get stuck for an engine I have one that I brought of ebay a while ago with 8000 miles on it supposedly. It cost me £205 to get it delivered here. I've taken the cams out of it and the oil passage described above as mine had a broken oil passage resulting in 3 severly warn rockers and two slightly scored camshafts. I can put my old camshafts back in it and the broken oil passage if you want and you're welcome to make me an offer on it. (i've been honest so please don't take the piss). Again if your camcaps are broken and need a new head let me know and I'll see what I can do as I have a couple of engines with complete heads sitting in my lockup at the moment.
If you choose to give up with it, let me know and I'll make you an offer on it as I need a doner bike for my Fuel injected masterpiece (please don't make me resort to using an SV650 )
OOO and also, which rocker was it that was scuffing, if it's one from the left hand side of the engine, especially on the inlet side then you have oil starvation issues and checking out the oil supply piece is a must (take off the camchain guide, two allen headed bolts and then the camcaps, it's the piece linking the two camcaps together and should be solid with NO cracks however small, also make sure it has a little "dowl" which attaches it to the head, like a little bit of pipe that half sits in the supply and half in the head making the join more oil-proof.
Cheers, any problems PM me,
Dan

[deviant]

OOO and also, which rocker was it that was scuffing, if it's one from the left hand side of the engine, especially on the inlet side then you have oil starvation issues and checking out the oil supply piece is a must (take off the camchain guide, two allen headed bolts and then the camcaps, it's the piece linking the two camcaps together and should be solid with NO cracks however small, also make sure it has a little "dowl" which attaches it to the head, like a little bit of pipe that half sits in the supply and half in the head making the join more oil-proof.
Cheers, any problems PM me,
Dan

That's an interesting one. The first one that went was the right hand inlet valve on cylinder 2, and the one that's gone now is the far left one on cylinder 1, so both in that quarter of the engine. Sounds like I need to take a very close look at the lubrication.

In terms of getting the engine out, I'm planning on knocking together a quick frame/trolley that will support the engine complete with exhaust and cooling system, then unbolting and lifting the frame off the top - I've done this before on another bike. Checking the clearances was enough of a pain in the butt in the frame, if I'm doing anything more involved than that I want it right out of the way.

I wasn't serious about giving up on the bike, I'm just annoyed because it's pretty much the worst time for it to happen. Hence I would be quite tempted by just swapping the head over for a good one (or good enough that it would go 3000 miles over the next 3/4 months without blowing up!), then fixing the issues with the current one in my own time.