Super versus Bog-Standard Unleaded

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Super versus Bog-Standard Unleaded

Post by Tirpitz »

Ok guys, I'll just stir up the dying embers of this topic again :smt003

Since reading previous posts on this subject I've been running my bike on Shell V-Power super unleaded. Runs great. However, coming back from Mallory Park yesterday I had to get some petrol and pulled in to an Esso garage. No super available so filled it right up with normal unleaded expecting to notice a difference in performance. 80 mile run home ahead of me on a mixture a fast A-roads and some scratchy stuff - plenty of time to notice toad running. And y'know what? No tail-off in performance, in fact if I'm being honest I reckon the carburation was better. Better pick-up from low revs, smoother, without a flat-spot which seemed to be there before.

Now, I'm not advocating sticking supermarket fuel in it, which IIRC was what Jamz tested for before with unencouraging results, I do think the branded petrol with the fuel additives is worth the few extra pennies and does make for better running and a cleaner engine. However, jury's well out as far as I'm concerned as to whether super unleaded does any good in these bikes. Maybe if the ignition timing was altered to suit but on OEM set-up I tend to think standard unleaded is the way to go.
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Re: Super versus Bog-Standard Unleaded

Post by CaNsA »

With the posh stuff in the tank i have noticed:-
no "hot start" issues,
easier to start from cold
engine is less lumpy when cold
warms up quicker
feels alot smoother all round.
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Re: Super versus Bog-Standard Unleaded

Post by cargo »

Super really is only needed in engines with a higher compression ratio.................

One thing I would seriously reccommend is that you use a lead replacement additive I use Castrol Valvemaster.......................ZXRs are designed to run unleaded but so far as I'm concerned engines and valve seat just love lead...............so lead replacement is no bad thing
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Re: Super versus Bog-Standard Unleaded

Post by Tirpitz »

Not cheap though Cargo. Looking at price delivered (or bought over the counter) looks like adding about a quid per tankful.

Suppose you're going to say 'lot cheaper than regrinding valve seats :smt002 )'

If the engines are designed to run on unleaded then surely they should have harder seats and not require it. Maybe this level of belt and braces protection would only be of noticeable benefit to a race engine which is working at the limit?
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Re: Super versus Bog-Standard Unleaded

Post by CaNsA »

I forgot to add that i get an extra 10miles out of a tankfull of the posh stuff
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Re: Super versus Bog-Standard Unleaded

Post by masterofinsanity »

have you read this? viewtopic.php?f=57&t=11425
Don't forget people there is more to the zxr400 than this forum... check out www.zxrworld.co.uk also.
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Re: Super versus Bog-Standard Unleaded

Post by cargo »

Yes for me it is a race thing...............I dont add anything to the fuel in my road bike.

Having said that the valves and valve seats in all my race bikes going back to 1996.have only ever produced 2 valve issues. One bent in a ZXR and about 16 bent chewed up and spat out the exhaust on a K 2 600 GSXR
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Re: Super versus Bog-Standard Unleaded

Post by Tirpitz »

masterofinsanity wrote:have you read this? viewtopic.php?f=57&t=11425
Yes, that's the test by Jamz I was referring to above. Like I say, I wouldn't put supermarket petrol in as I've read in other places that the reason it's so cheap is because they don't add the 'extras' which help keep the fuel system clean and protect the rings etc.. I think it's worth a few extra pennies for the additives from a petrol company's fuel.
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Re: Super versus Bog-Standard Unleaded

Post by Tirpitz »

CaNsA wrote:I forgot to add that i get an extra 10miles out of a tankfull of the posh stuff
Out of interest CaNsA what company's fuels have you done your comparison with? IME there is a bit of difference between them. Shell seems to be a much better petrol than Texaco to me, bike is noticeably poorer running on the latter. And as found out the other day Esso seemed fine. So I reckon it has as much to do with the additives as the octane rating. Shell also claim more mpg for their petrol due to the additives. And they are in the whole range, not just the V-power.
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Re: Super versus Bog-Standard Unleaded

Post by cargo »

True and funny fuel story.......................


On the Isle of Man there are lots of fuel stations................Shell, Total, Esso they are all there...............however down at the dockside there is only one big tank for petrol deliveries from the other island.....................figure that out
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Re: Super versus Bog-Standard Unleaded

Post by Tirpitz »

Good point that :smt017 Perhaps they all get the same bog standard stuff with no additives there? Or maybe the guy at the petrol station mixes them into the pump once they're delivered...... confuddled :pmsl
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Re: Super versus Bog-Standard Unleaded

Post by CaNsA »

Tirpitz wrote:
CaNsA wrote:I forgot to add that i get an extra 10miles out of a tankfull of the posh stuff
Out of interest CaNsA what company's fuels have you done your comparison with? IME there is a bit of difference between them. Shell seems to be a much better petrol than Texaco to me, bike is noticeably poorer running on the latter. And as found out the other day Esso seemed fine. So I reckon it has as much to do with the additives as the octane rating. Shell also claim more mpg for their petrol due to the additives. And they are in the whole range, not just the V-power.

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Re: Super versus Bog-Standard Unleaded

Post by Neosophist »

cargo wrote:True and funny fuel story.......................


On the Isle of Man there are lots of fuel stations................Shell, Total, Esso they are all there...............however down at the dockside there is only one big tank for petrol deliveries from the other island.....................figure that out
I'll explain.

RON (Octane rating) isn't an indicator of performance like many people belive it to be, it's the petrols 'knock-resistance' capability.

By this I mean.. how much heat / compression the petrol will take before it spontainiously combusts before it's ignited on purpose.

If you run a shitty low grade fuel (this american 85/88 gas) in a modern europe/jap motor it'll ignite before the plug sets fire to it, often as the piston is on the up-stroke.. the creates a 'knocking' sound as the piston is knokcing against the explosion momentairly, not only does this destroy the engine eventually it leads to less power.

A fuel rated at '98' RON will resisting exploding more than an 85 RON fuel.. got it?


Ordinary unleaded - 95 RON
Super unleaded - 98 RON
Leaded Four Star - 98 RON

Since all fuel is now unleaded (you can still actually buy proper 4 star at many garages.. this is LEADED fuel, not lead replacement, it's designed for classic cars and bikes that NEED it as they don't have hardned valve seats) it was 1.65 a litre when I last brought some about 18 months ago so i'm guessing it's pushing 2.00 a litre now.

This explains your single tanker... first the bog standard Unleaded (95) ron is delivered... then inside the tanker a separate container mixes additives in the fuel which raise the octane rating (and the price of the fuel) to make Super unleaded at al.

However, some manufactureres also add extra 'cleaning products' to the fuel to try and justify the 'Super' Rating (essentially they are charging more money for additives a majority of vehicles don't need or will be able to use.

The ZXR was designed to run 91 octane unleaded gas or better. This means that any grade lower in fuel will be at risk of burning unintentionally in the engine.. anything higher is surplus to requirements.

The added 'cleaning chemicals' in the fuel do nothing for this old carb'd based engine as far as I can tell.. I took apart a VFR for valve stem seal replacement i'd covered 40,000km on and only ever ran it on standard unleaded and it was spotless inside.

Some of the newer (mainly car engines) like the BMW and Merc's can benefit from increased Octane fuel.. they alter the engine conditions to deliver more power from the engine when a suitable fuel is used.. hence bmw quoting something like 190bhp standard / 200 super.

The ZXR cannot do this so the extra RON are not doing anything, remember.. extra RON are not delievering more power.. just letting the petrol be treated more agressivly if your engine can do so.

The only thing are the cleaning solvents.. ordinary fuel keeps your engine spotless anyhow... and one tank wouldnt' be enough to remove any deposits that are already there... swtiching between the two there wont' be any difference in a standard running engine as the only thing your adding are cleaners.. which for the majority of engines wont be needed as its already clean (normal petrol is not dirty!!)

Leaded fuel isn't needed as the valve seats are hardneded (try grinding them!) lead used to act as a protective lubricant to prevent against valve wear as the seats were soft (think 2 stroke lubrication in an engine)

The ZXR valve dont' wear.

There is the placebo effect where it feels better. even i've experienced this, but after trying two back to back tanks on consecutive days (i didn't look at the label of the cans till after the test) I couldnt' tell which was which.

Which!? magazine did a big feature on it a few years back too and found theres no difference at all for the majority of engines... and many drivers even drove more economically with the 'premium' fuel in resulting in more miles a tank so drivers think there getting a bargain.

The only negative is that some cheap fuel garages do sell 'recyc' this is when a fuel tank is drained all the fuel gets recycled and re-sold.. occasionally this might have a speck of diesel in it, which might cause a bit of crapp running.. I forget the term now I think it's vapor recycle or something (There was a list of garages that did this) so that might expain a bad tank of regular. Although you can get a 'bad' tank of anything if theres contamination.

Normal grade 95 regular fuel from a decent source is more than you'll ever need for the bike unless you've built some high compression advanced ignition super turbo charged beast that needs 120ron av-gas.
One of our users commented that using higher octane fuel than your engine requires actually gives no benefit and may be a waste of money. This is because virtually NO engines require 98 RON over 95, and the market for 'super' fuels seems to be based on people's misunderstanding of octane ratings and the placebo effect of filling up with 'more powerful' fuel - making motorists think their engine is running better in some way.

What do the fuel companies say then, to justify the "increased power" claims for the super grade fuels? Some companies say that while all fuels contain cleaning additives, 'super' fuels contain more or better detergents to keep the injectors cleaner than standard fuel. Others say the fuel is a few percent denser which gives slightly more power per litre. These benefits may be marginal though in comparison to the extra cost involved so it is worth ensuring that your engine will actually benefit before filling up.

Some engines actually do need higher octane fuel, such as race engines with very high compression and some turbocharged engines, such as the import version of the Nissan Skyline. Also, a few vehicles, such as the new BMW K1200R motorbike, can sense knock and adjust their engine tuning to take advantage of higher grade fuels. Another user commented that the 2004 BMW 330 also does this, according to the driver's handbook it makes 231 BHP on 98 octane and 221 BHP on 95. This ability is apparently widespread amongst German performance cars using Bosch / Siemens electronic engine controls.
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Re: Super versus Bog-Standard Unleaded

Post by Tirpitz »

Well, I'd be loathe to argue with that lot as unless you are an accomplished bullshitter Neosophist you seem to know what you're on about :smt003

That'll be me down the Asda in future then for bog-standard unleaded :smt002
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Re: Super versus Bog-Standard Unleaded

Post by Jamz »

Very intereting stuff Neosophist - but whilst the placebo effect may explain the audible difference between crap fuel and V-Power, it can't explain the differences I experienced on a fairly extensive road test, i.e. better mileage and flatspots in the rev range etc.

If I thought there was any chance at all I was just experiencing a placebo effect believe me I'd happily save myself the 10p per litre! :pmsl

I should have kept the video footage to show the differences. Maybe I'll try it again sometime...
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